tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post4462507916612617059..comments2024-03-10T06:20:10.198+00:00Comments on Markus Vinzent's Blog: Marcion - the source for the Gospel of Peter, the Synoptics and John?Professor Markus Vinzenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-7258061736275875652017-06-12T23:29:29.407+01:002017-06-12T23:29:29.407+01:00Have you considered the possibility that the Gospe...Have you considered the possibility that the Gospel of Peter actually was the Marcionite Gospel? Those early churches that made use of the Gospel of Peter only re-named it from the Gospel of the Lord to the Gospel of Peter as a way to preserve it so that it would hopefully not get destroyed by the enemies of Marcionism.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13414749018694813314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-34803527202814009172015-07-26T00:28:39.252+01:002015-07-26T00:28:39.252+01:00Maybe Marcion's Gospel is his edit of the '...Maybe Marcion's Gospel is his edit of the 'Ur-Gospel' that has been posited from time to time?qraalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13436948899560519608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-21444923744345050902013-10-31T20:30:45.428+00:002013-10-31T20:30:45.428+00:00Dear James David,
thanks so much for this comment ...Dear James David,<br />thanks so much for this comment and your questions. Here preliminary attempts (a more detailed answer is attempted in the new book 'Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels', Peeters 2014):<br />1) John the Presbyter - yes, I believe that Marcion's Gospel was one of these other sources and that he was a source for that gospel as well?<br /><br />2) What previous material or oral source did Marcion use? This is a very good question. The Gospel of Luke was a revision of Marcion's, but as Marcion diligently collected the Letters of Paul, we can rightly assume that he also gathered sayings and perhaps also narratives about the Lord. And yet - as any gifted writer - we also may assume that he composed many of the narratives, if he was mainly able to find oracles. It is one of the astonishing facts - much ridiculed or played down by many NT scholars - that prior to Marcion there is NOT ONE SINGLE gospel narrative found in any of the sources which we have, even if one dates all disputed apostolic writings early (Ignatius, 1Clement, Hermas, Barnabas, all NT epistles, Revelation ...).<br /><br />3) Marcion, I assume, did not have one source, but perhaps only sayings of the Lord and perhaps, some historical data and narratives. On those, Mark could also have drawn, without doubt, but the similarity to Marcion's Gospel suggests some sort of literary relation between the two. The comparison (as shown above with the Synoptics and the Gospel of Peter) indicates that not Marcion depended on Mark, but the other way around, Mark on Marcion. Perhaps, Mark can also have had some recollections by JMs of Peter's oral reminiscences. <br /><br />4) Marcion seems to have produced his Gospel only after the second Jewish war, hence after 135 AD. Against your position ('We have today fragments of the four canonicals dating from around the time that Marcion was writing his gospel') scholarship today does not have any fragment from the time prior to Marcion, no papyri, no narrative - the only elements we encounter are some sayings, and none - if they are included at all - of them are of the same form as we have them in the canonical Gospels.Professor Markus Vinzenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-80949643007670958442013-10-31T15:32:02.731+00:002013-10-31T15:32:02.731+00:00Now that's a very interesting theory you propo...Now that's a very interesting theory you propose; if I understand it aright, you are suggesting that perhaps Marcion's gospel was a or the source for the four canonical gospels. So, questions for you:<br /><br />1) John the Presbyter (quoted in Papias) clearly designates the Gospel of Mark as the work of John Mark, relying heavily on his recollections of Peter's oral reminiscences, but, as scholars agree, relying on other sources too. Are you suggesting that Marcion's was one of these other sources? And the Presbyter is by universal account the author (amanuensis) of the Gospel of John; are you suggesting that Marcion was a source for that gospel as well?<br /><br />2) Since, obviously, Marcion was not an eyewitness to the events of Jesus's life, on what previous material or oral source would you suggest he based his gospel, if not (as most scholars agree) on the Gospel of Luke?<br /><br />3) If then some source other than Luke was Marcion's source, why could that not be a source for Mark in conjunction with JM's recollections of Peter's oral reminiscences? Such a source would explain the phenomena you delineate above.<br /><br />4) How do you deal with the dating, which has Marcion born around 85 and not producing his gospel until, at the very earliest (and this is really stretching possibilities!), in the late 110s? We have today fragments of the four canonicals dating from around the time that Marcion was writing his gospel; there is such a preponderance of fact supporting their composition BEFORE Marcion composed his gospel that I have trouble considering your theory that it was a source or the four canonicals.<br /><br /> James David Audlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15399411748138655100noreply@blogger.com