tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post7753607747047551214..comments2024-03-10T06:20:10.198+00:00Comments on Markus Vinzent's Blog: A riddle: Papias in Argumentum secundum Iohannem - or what does it say about John and Marcion?Professor Markus Vinzenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-39960290473432401582018-02-10T11:25:45.275+00:002018-02-10T11:25:45.275+00:00Students of John...were there many, or was there j...Students of John...were there many, or was there just one around the mid-2nd century? We’re Papias, Ignatius and Polycarp merely aliases for the man Lucian knew as Peregrinus Proteus and the Church knew as Leucius Charinus?<br /><br />I’m finding it less easy to believe what Irenaeus was saying.<br /><br />Especially AFTER reading the Peregrinus account and researching Leucius Charinus.<br /><br />Actually, I find it ironic the Church ejected Charinus for his fantasy works, yet kept three of his stories about John...John surviving a vat of boiling oil, John at Ephesus, John at Patmos.<br /><br />If those stories were fictions...that blows any idea of all the presumed students of John out of the water.<br /><br />Peregrinus himself would have forged all Johanine letters, Gnostic Johanine Acts. I wouldn’t say he was fond of Marcion or Mark...and I don’t think Marcion was second-century. i’d put Marcion back in the late-1st century and the writer of the original Evangelion...as someone who’d gone sour on Torah-observant Judaism. That would better explain the antithetical nature of the Marcion NT...where a Gnostic form of ChrEstianitywould be a natural extension of Samaritan and Hellenicist ideas. Here’s a thought...Sermon of the Mount as Marcionite Antitheses. In that regard, Jesus would have been more antithetical to Torah than was made out.geehall1https://www.blogger.com/profile/16355438324374598773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-49179642512598576642013-10-31T14:20:06.594+00:002013-10-31T14:20:06.594+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.James David Audlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15399411748138655100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-80664183591815515322013-10-31T01:02:40.348+00:002013-10-31T01:02:40.348+00:00I forgot to copy in the rest of 14....
Marcion hæ...I forgot to copy in the rest of 14....<br /><br />Marcion hæreticus cum ab eo fuisset improbatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, abiectus est. A Johanne is vero scripta vel epistolas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus qui in Ponto fuerunt.<br /><br />Marcion, the heretic, when he had been rejected by him [Papias] because he [Marcion] had suggested contrary matters, was expelled. He [Marcion] had brought to him [Papias], from the brothers who were in Pontus, the writings and letters by John.<br /><br />This accords with what the Panarion says...<br /><br />τοῖς ἔτι πρεσβύταις περιοῦσι καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν μαθητῶν τῶν ἀποστόλων ὁρμωμένοις συμβαλὼν ᾔτει συναχθῆναι καὶ οὐδεὶς αὐτῷ συγκεχώρηκε.<br /><br />He met with the presbyters who still lived, those who had been taught by the disciples of the apostles (of Jesus), and begged to be admitted to communion, but none of them would allow this.<br /><br />... and Peter of Alexandria....<br /><br />… καθως τα ακριβη βιβλια περιεχει, αυτο τε το ιδιοχειρον του ευαγγελιστου, οπερ μεχρι του νυν πεφυλακται χαριτι θεου εν τη Εφεσιων αγιωτατη εκκλησια, και υπο των πιστων εκεισε προσκυνειται.<br /><br />… the very copy that was written by the hand of the evangelist, which, by divine grace, has been preserved in the most holy church in Ephesus, where it is kissed [venerated] by the faithful.<br /><br />Of course, I provide a lot of analytical detail in the book - I am expanding these chapters for the next printing, in which we go to two volumes, because the translation and commentaries now total up around a thousand pages.....James David Audlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15399411748138655100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-36440542176588644312013-10-31T00:54:09.634+00:002013-10-31T00:54:09.634+00:00You may be interested that in my published restora...You may be interested that in my published restoration of the original Gospel of John, in the commentaries, I punctuate as follows, and translate into English thus...<br /><br />Evangelium Iohannis manifestum et datum est ecclesiis ab Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto; sicut Papias nomine, Hieropolitanus, discipulus Johannis carus, in Exotericis, id est in extremis quinque libris retulit; descripsit vero evangelium dictante Iohanne recte verum.<br /><br />The Gospel of John was published and given to the churches by John [the Presbyter] when he was still in the flesh; so recalled Papias, a beloved disciple of John named [by him as the bishop] of Hierapolis, in Exotericis [Explanations], that is, in the last of [Papias’s] five books: John in fact wrote the gospel down faithfully from the correct truth dictated to him.<br /><br />That John the Presbyter wrote the gospel from the oral memories of the Beloved Disciple (whom I conclude was Lazarus) fits. The gospel manuscript was sent to Pontus for safekeeping, and Marcion took it with him when his father disowned him, and tried to buy favor with Papias by giving it to him. The above Reg. Lat. 14 also coheres with the comments in the Muratorian Canon, which I believe like the Reg. Lat. 14 is a paraphrase of Papias's writings that was in Greek at first, but both were translated into horrible Latin...<br /><br />(10) quarti euangeliorum iohannis ex decipolis (11) cohortantibus condescipulis et eps suis dixit (12) conieiunate mihi. odie triduo (13) et quid cuique fuerit reuelatum alterutrum nobis ennarremus (14) eadem nocte reuelatum andreae ex apostolis ut recogniscentibus cuntis iohannis suo nomine cuncta discriberet ... (20) quid ergo mirum si iohannes tam constanter sincula etia in epistulis suis proferam dicens in semeipsu (21) quae uidimus oculis nostris et auribus audiuimus et manus nostrae palpauerunt haec scripsimus uobis (22) sic enim non solum uisurem sed & auditorem sed & scriptore omnium mirabiliu dni per ordinem profetetur<br /><br />(10) The fourth [book] of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. (11) When his fellow-disciples and bishops urged [him], he said: (12) “Fast together with me today for three days (13) and, what shall be revealed to each, let us tell [it] to each other.” (14) On that same night it was revealed to Andrew, [one] of the Apostles, that, with all of them reviewing [it], John should describe all things in his own name. ... (20) What marvel, therefore, if John so constantly brings forward particular [matters] also in his letters, saying of himself: (21) “What we have seen with our eyes and have heard with [our] ears and our hands have handled, […] these things we have written to you.” (22) For thus he declares that he was not only an eyewitness and hearer, but also a writer of all the wonderful things of the Lord in order.<br />James David Audlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15399411748138655100noreply@blogger.com