tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post4217791036250162624..comments2024-03-10T06:20:10.198+00:00Comments on Markus Vinzent's Blog: The first hundred years of Christianity - an answer to Udo SchnelleProfessor Markus Vinzenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-3388411540215607632023-10-14T10:52:00.769+01:002023-10-14T10:52:00.769+01:00Do you think that Justin Martyr not citing the nam...Do you think that Justin Martyr not citing the name of the gospel/s that he mentions in his writings especially the Dialogue with Trypho is one good reason to doubt the conventional dating of the canonical gospels somewhere post 70 to 100 AD/CE?Jonathan, MDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10897242031203584922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-83073139801137213362021-11-08T11:23:32.829+00:002021-11-08T11:23:32.829+00:00Again, very interesting remarks - the relation bet...Again, very interesting remarks - the relation between Marcion and Thomas needs to be worked out.Professor Markus Vinzenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-12176462672078539672021-11-08T11:22:19.993+00:002021-11-08T11:22:19.993+00:00Dear Jarek, I absolutely agree with you on the add...Dear Jarek, I absolutely agree with you on the addition of historial studies! And what you say about the new market is something, I will remember, as it convinces me. Also interesting of what you say about the approval of the leaders of cult groups by the authorities, would be great, if you could add the sources for this information.Professor Markus Vinzenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-62755032837921629692021-11-08T11:19:35.539+00:002021-11-08T11:19:35.539+00:00Dear Jarek, you are absolutely right, particularly...Dear Jarek, you are absolutely right, particularly, as 1 Clement is used again and again for dating the canonical Gospels. Take, for example:<br />„It is also almost certain that the original collection was made before A.D. 95. At that time Clement of Rome wrote to the Corinthians and virtually quoted from Romans (Rom. 1:29-32 – I Clem. 35:5-6) and I Corinthians (I Cor. 1:11-13 – I Clem. 47:1-3; I Cor. 12:12-26 – I Clem. 37:5; I Cor. 13:4-7 – I Clem. 49:5), as well as made probable allusions to passages in II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, and Philippians. Since he prefaced his citation of I Corinthians 1:11-13 by saying, “Take up the epistle of the blessed apostle Paul” (I Clem. 47:1), it seems evident that he had a copy of that letter in Rome and therefore probably also had copies of the other letters, in other words already possessed the Pauline collection“, so J. Finegan, The original form of the Pauline collection (1956), 85. <br /><br />I have not written in extenso on 1 Clement, but I am just about to write a follow up of "Christ's Thora" which will deal with Marcion's collection of the Pauline letters, and in this, I will also deal with 1 Clement. Here my short answer: <br /><br />We only need to see, how often Finegan (we could take many other examples) makes contradictory combinations („almost certain “, „virtually quoted“, "made probable allusions", "seems evident" ... in such a short space which then lead to firm conclusions, one can already doubt the argument. In addition, the dating of 1 Clement according to latest research is anything but firm. The dating is based on references in the text to a time of persecution which scholars in the past have related to the Emperor Domitian (81-96 CE). In the meantime, however, scholars admit that such a persecution of Christians cannot be proven, in addition, the institutional organisation that is manifest in 1 Clement cannot be used as a basis, when compared to other writings, and overall, there are too many unknowns in the equation to propose a date other than first or second centuries, so K. Erlemann, Die Datierung Des Ersten Klemensbriefes – Anfragen an Eine Communis Opinio (1998).<br />Hope that helps for the moment. Professor Markus Vinzenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18207418071078727708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-84187177207673233762021-05-24T16:48:37.311+01:002021-05-24T16:48:37.311+01:00Well. Marcion was the first gospel indeed - but th...Well. Marcion was the first gospel indeed - but there is 1 text that exists before his, and Tertullian attests to that<br /><br />Tertullian on the parable of the banquet (chapter 31):<br /><br />"“A certain man made a great supper, and bade many.”4730 The preparation for the supper is no doubt a figure of the abundant provision4731 of eternal life. I first remark, that strangers, and persons unconnected by ties of relationship, are not usually invited to a supper; but that members of the household and family are more frequently the favoured guests."<br /><br />Thomas logion 64 has indeed "strangers" - but none of the biased translations show that. Check https://www.academia.edu/42110001/Interactive_Coptic_English_Thomas_translation_v1_7_5d_with_full_reverse_index_and_concordance and you can verify it yourself <br /><br />Tertullian on "the kingdom is within you": chapter 35<br /><br />The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”4902 Now, who will not interpret the words “within you” to mean in your hand, within your power, if you hear, and do the commandment of God? If, however, the kingdom of God lies in His commandment, set before your mind Moses on the other side, according to our antitheses, and you will find the self-same view of the case.4903 “The commandment is not a lofty one,4904 neither is it far off from thee. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?’ nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?’ But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, and in thy hands, to do it.”<br /><br />Check logion 3 of Thomas, any translation will do<br /><br />There's more, but these are good enough for a start<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Martijn Linssen Martijn Linssenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16460950790934803390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-89120980508736792402021-05-12T06:18:29.112+01:002021-05-12T06:18:29.112+01:00Dear Professor,
The moment and reasons for the eme...Dear Professor,<br />The moment and reasons for the emergence of Christianity as a separate religion with its own tradition is practically found and proven by the Professor. <br /><br />The "forgotten for 80 years" body of Paul's epistles, "irrelevant" and ``unnoticed'' gospels, which the supposed authors, however, knew about themselves, have one explanation. <br />Well, they weren't there until Marion's time. The issues of dating and authenticity of patristic works or the consensus on the synoptic problem are to be redefined.<br /><br />Marcion was the first to break the tradition of discussing with Hellenistic Judaism and prepared an independent offer for most of the empire's inhabitants. He was successful in telling about Christ to people who were ignorant of the LXX, and were unfamiliar with the Mosaic tradition.<br />He just came up with an offer for a new, much larger market. This market was ignored by competitors and Marcon's predecessors.<br />Earlier, proving the doctrine, as you rightly pointed out, was based on the LXX, on the mythological and philosophical tradition. This means two things. First of all - it was discussed with someone. Secondly - no one has yet come up with a comprehensive new offer. <br /><br />Marcion tailored religion to suit the new audience. He adjusted it to the recipient and not to himself as the theologians of the time did.<br /><br />I think that in addition to combining patristic studies with New Testament studies, it is also necessary to add historical studies related to the administration of the empire in religious matters. The divide and rule of Rome in matters of religion is the full control of the highest managers of each religion in the empire. The high priest was approved by the authorities of the local or central empire and must have some kind of imperial legitimacy. Regardless of whether he was in Rome or Jerusalem or Alexandria. This applied to the followers of Serapis, YHWH, Isis, and Christ. Religion developed without informing the authorities without cooperating with them was a mere conspiracy in the eyes of the imperial administration.<br />Best regards<br />JarekJarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09290613521451551691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5008517438604159901.post-16791510292512124062021-04-27T07:12:31.812+01:002021-04-27T07:12:31.812+01:00Professor,
One of the many problems faced by bibli...Professor,<br />One of the many problems faced by biblical studies and patristic studies is the authenticity and dating of 1 Clement. Tubingen School vs Harnack vs Detering. Where can I find Your position of this problem?Jarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09290613521451551691noreply@blogger.com